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Noah Birnbaum's avatar

I have a bunch to say (grew up in an orthodox jewish community and rejected it + debated A LOT of apologists at an orthodox Jewish seminary as an atheist).

1) First off, you may wanna check out Richard Elliot Friedman’s book entitled Who Wrote the Bible -- it’s very accessible, and I thought very good. He has a discussion about how the tabernacle in the Jewish temple closely resembles structure in Egypt (without resembling any structures of the canaanites), which he thinks (for that and a few other reasons) is good evidence to at least think that the Levite class of Jews actually having an exodus from Egypt.

2) In regards to the chosen people, there are many interpretations of how this actually works, and it’s not clear they get more moral weight because of it. Some rabbis just believe that they have different duties - are supposed to get the rest of the world to follow the Noahide laws.

3) There are other morally repugnant things in the Torah -- God telling the jews to kill everyone - you can find a few examples of this online.

4) You should actually look at what the Torah says with regards to all the Jews hearing God at Mount Sinai -- it’s really not clear, but it was later interpreted to mean that they did (by Maimonidies, for example). Perhaps it would make sense that they didn’t have to make the claim originally but, years later, it developed into that claim.

5) There are a few instances in the Torah where the people forget a lot of the laws and later come back to them -- 1) after the Babylonian exile with Ezra and Nechemia, 2) Josiah “found” a Torah in the Temple after it was destroyed and realized that they were doing everything wrong and need to go back on the path. These might have been where new stories were introduced.

6) More methodological - this argument just relies on a ton of premises - mostly empirical/ historical clauims that seems really difficult to quantify and very uncertain. Giving the diminishing probabilities of the conclusion after a bunch of uncertain premises, you should lead to a very uncertain conclusion.

7) It’s quite strange that such a small religion would do so well -- especially given that they don’t missionize! This seems very weird for a false religion.

8) There are various points at which there is good reason to think that Moses was not the author of the Torah https://www.thetorah.com/article/who-wrote-the-torah-according-to-the-torah.

More things to be said, but this is a start.

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James Reilly's avatar

I agree with most of this, except (shockingly) the part about Christianity contradicting the Hebrew Bible.

- I don't agree that the Shema contradicts the Trinity: it just asserts monotheism, and Christians are monotheists. One could claim that the Shema asserts unitarianism, but that's clearly question-begging.

- The claim that "God would not fear himself" seems very weak. The New Testament describes Jesus as obedient to God (Philippians 2:6-8), and Jesus himself refers to the Father as "my God and your God" (John 20:17), a mere eleven verses before he himself is called God (John 20:28)!

- Christians generally don't think that Ezekiel 46 is about the Messiah. That's one of the problems with arguments from prophecy: what counts as a prophecy often depends on who you ask! An obvious example of this is the Suffering Servant songs in Isaiah: Christians have historically interpreted them as messianic, while Jews (largely in response to Christian interpretations) have tended to interpret them as referring to the Jewish people as a whole.

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