Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Mira's avatar

I suppose there's a bit of a trend to follow here in questioning the sanewashing of ideals, especially on the left. But come on, if you're going to dunk on feminists as a group, there are feminist thinkers. You could engage directly with one of them and their ideas. Pulling some definitions and attacking popular usage of a term out of context feels unrepresentative of how you usually treat concepts you disagree with.

You could look at someone like Bell Hooks, who adds in a dash more nuance in her definition:

“a political-social system that insists that males are inherently dominating, superior to everything, and everyone deemed weak, especially females, and endowed with the right to dominate and rule over the weak and to maintain that dominance through various forms of psychological terrorism and violence.”

She wrote a whole book on the harm that patriarchy does to men in her book “the will to change”. She calls out the violence men do towards other men, the stunting of emotional expression and ultimately a lack of true openness to love and acceptance, among other things, as part of the cost of the pursuit of dominance. She also talks about the population that gets excluded and includes men who fail to live up to the dominance model of masculinity. Whether through effeminacy or simply by failing to gain power over other men.

Or you could look at popular religious ideas like complementarity. Billions of Christians who all believe that God is a male and that men are meant to rule over their wives. Or wives taking their husband's names. Or patrilineal naming of children. These reflect deeply held ideology, boosted by world spanning institutions over millennia.

I think there's plenty of room to argue which median individual suffers more or lives a worse life, but that’s kind of tangential to patriarchy. More men could suffer, and more acutely from patriarchy, than women, and that would still be consistent with a system that defines masculinity around dominance and control. It would just need to punish “weak men” as a class more than “women”. You could even say that is true in pockets, if you consider class, race, queerness. I mean, if there is a winner of the oppression Olympics, it is the poor trans woman of color, right? The group expected to, but furthest from achieving manhood through dominance.

I'd love to read your perspective on “patriarchy” as an idea, I just don't think this addresses a particularly strong or interesting version of the concept. I'd love to see you go deep instead of superficial.

Expand full comment
Andrew Doris's avatar

I am often critical of the feminist movement, and I care deeply (and write often) about men's problems. But this post is much shallower than your usual content, and I honestly suspect you will look back on it in a few years and wince (as I do about many things I wrote about gender relations back in the day). You ignore millennia of history and centuries of rich social science to invent your own definition and rubric, in service of an edgy headline that results in people talking past each other.

A patient feminist with more time than I have today could make a compelling line-by-line rebuttal to your point-scoring exercise - but as even you sense and admit, this exercise is an unproductive distraction. Patriarchy is not about subjective assessments of who is "better off" or better treated. It's not about a "weighted average" you pulled from thin air.

Patriarchy is about *power.* Wikipedia calls it "a social system in which men typically hold authority and responsibility while also excluding women from it." Men have held, and still hold, disproportionate power over women at the household, workforce, community, and political levels for centuries. For centuries, this has been rationalized by subconscious, unscientific, socially constructed (and often, religiously reinforced) mindsets about gender roles and capacities. It is simply absurd to pretend that these deeply embedded mindsets and ensuing power imbalances have disappeared. It may not be as evident on your campus, but it's a lot more evident in Oklahoma, or most of the rest of the country.

There are many obvious ways in which men retain disproportionate power in our society. Men dominate the upper echelons of business, the military, and the court system. Congress is 72% male, a record low; in my lifetime it was 94% male. There has never been a female president, and another female candidate just lost to a transparently sexist and sexually abusive candidate. In fact, the female candidate's much-mocked mannerisms were directly shaped by the unequal pressures on women to constantly smile, laugh, be agreeable, and not assert themselves too forcefully. In huge swaths of the country, men are still expected to be breadwinners and make decisions for the family, while women are expected to (and do) disproportionately cook, clean, and take care of the children. Some of this inequity is voluntary, but much of it is socially pressured or ingrained.

Your response to this conceded imbalance of power is that it "doesn’t seem enough to make there be a patriarchy." Oh, well...I guess that settles it? And your entire analogy to anti-semitism doesn't fit at all. If Jews had in fact held overwhelming majority power over most of the world for most of human history, indelibly shaping our institutions and mindsets in ways that work to the continued disempowerment of non-Jews, saying so would not be the crackpot conspiracy theory it is today, it would be the truth. It seems to me your actual point is "some feminists on the internet are sometimes guilty of Motte and Bailey, or misuse/exaggerate the extent of patriarchy today." Which is true, but not what you titled this piece.

Feminists will be the first to tell you that patriarchy hurts men in many ways. I've been toying with a post myself suggesting that in 2024, patriarchy arguably hurts men most, for some of the reasons you provide here. It deprives women of power, and deprives men of happiness. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If someone tried to dismiss some weighty philosophical term ("there is no utility," etc) so nonchalantly, you'd quickly surmise that they don't know what they're talking about. People who've engaged with these issues at a deeper level than social media are going to get the same impression from this one.

Expand full comment
70 more comments...

No posts