Was in a little before you (I don't remember your name but it's not impossible I judged you at some point while I was in college and you were in HS). Everything you say here is completely and unironically correct, though I do want to throw out that by far the most common experience of competitive debate is a local tournament, usually run by the NCFL, and in which this type of stuff generally does not happen. This is derisively referred to as "lay debate" by people who attend major tournaments where the extreme ultra wokeness occurs, but it is in fact the majority of the activity.
Anyway, if you can believe it, college debate is actually much crazier than HS, as almost everyone involved is completely insane, as opposed to HS where there is usually a sane person for every insane person.
I don't really have a problem with the wacky arguments in round. I think they are extremely useful for what debate is trying to achieve, which is test the limits of what can be argued and how. There is real joy in trying to figure out how to disprove some dumb bullshit that nevertheless is a validly constructed argument. The real problem comes from one, the presumption that the leftiest position is right, and two, the out-of-round social dynamics that are unbelievably toxic.
I used to be an altrighter 4chan /pol/ lurker and it was precisely these sort of people who kept me radicalized and made me epistemically content with my far right views (having the only visible opponents to your views be crazy psychopathic dumb people who refuse to reason correctly is about the most comforting thing there can be)
I was talking to a friend who turned 30 about why some people younger than us (I'm 27) have acquired way more insane and paranoid views about every single thing liberal mainstream society says is true. We concluded that while we both grew up in deep blue suburban schools, we essentially got the last chopper out of 'nam before this stuff took off and blew up everyone's social trust. I graduated from high school in 2016 in the San Francisco Bay Area. I don't remember anything this bad from it. College on the other hand, had some problems start to arise.
That's the really annoying thing about the term "woke."
You have to clarify: Do you mean like "slavery was bad, and immigration is generally cool"... or "white people should be launched into space (which does not exist)"?
Well obviously, the Jews who were killed in the Holocaust were the ones with all the correct opinions on race, gender, and sexuality. It was the ones who survived and went to colonize Palestine (or Turtle Island) who had the problematic views.
I remember feeling the exact same sadness, because high school debate was such a perfect activity for competitive verbal nerds like myself, but by the end of my tenure (2014) circuit policy was captured by insane people from whom I was totally alienated. It’s also sad that fishback seems to be a grifting politician, because he is completely right about policy debate and I’d love to see it somehow fixed.
The problem is the judges. The judges should be regular people, not deeply indoctrinated college leftists.
Defending infinity-accepting fanaticism is the pinnacle of capitalist oppression. You believe that what is moral shouldn't depend on random occurences of Mars -- have you considered that what is moral _must_ depend on random occurences of Marx, as he and he alone has truly shown us the way out of our post-modern, post-capitalist hellscape that you would bring about (by defending infinity-accepting fanaticism). Not to mention that you _changed my mind_. I abhor such offensive behavior and no debate-space should contain those able to change my mind in particular.
The thing is that how effective an argument is is really not so well correlated with its truth. (See history, world) It seems like they’re playing a glass bead game which has gotten totally separated from its original intent.
You should go on Dad Saves America and talk to John Papola about all this stuff, he's just completed a series on the shameful state of debate. His audience would greatly appreciate your insights.
When I was a very left wing person I thought the people you described did not exist and instead where strawman fantasies of right wing commentators. But as I met more and more far left people I began to realise just how insane some of them were. The worst part is these insane fringes have infected the main stream! When I now discuss politics with friends/family members I first have to convince them that truth exists and is important and then try to explain to them that you cant just ignore a news article/statistic because it is to left/right wing! Its so infuriating how okay people are with being detached from reality. Thank you for actually trying your best to pursue truth even if it means changing your worldview.
MY GOODNESS. This was a crazy read. As a competitive debater myself, mainly world schools, Asian parliamentary and British Parliamentary formats, I am glad I’ve never seen any of this, though I must admit there seems to be a degree of left wing bias in that most motions seem to assume some kind of progressive context regarding the issues involved, but I digress. How are these people debaters? I have no idea.
Insane and hilarious story bro... reminds me of some of my moments at Berkeley Law as well. The left loses so much credibility when it does crazy shit like this lmao
What a wild ride. Back when I was in high school debate (circa: Resolved: The asteroid threat to the dinosaurs is overstated), debaters were my people, too. I can only imagine what an upsetting period this must have been in your life. I am so sorry to hear about this, and so impressed that you can write about it it such equanimity now.
Best wishes. Keep up the good work you do (which is a lot.)
Was in a little before you (I don't remember your name but it's not impossible I judged you at some point while I was in college and you were in HS). Everything you say here is completely and unironically correct, though I do want to throw out that by far the most common experience of competitive debate is a local tournament, usually run by the NCFL, and in which this type of stuff generally does not happen. This is derisively referred to as "lay debate" by people who attend major tournaments where the extreme ultra wokeness occurs, but it is in fact the majority of the activity.
Anyway, if you can believe it, college debate is actually much crazier than HS, as almost everyone involved is completely insane, as opposed to HS where there is usually a sane person for every insane person.
I don't really have a problem with the wacky arguments in round. I think they are extremely useful for what debate is trying to achieve, which is test the limits of what can be argued and how. There is real joy in trying to figure out how to disprove some dumb bullshit that nevertheless is a validly constructed argument. The real problem comes from one, the presumption that the leftiest position is right, and two, the out-of-round social dynamics that are unbelievably toxic.
I used to be an altrighter 4chan /pol/ lurker and it was precisely these sort of people who kept me radicalized and made me epistemically content with my far right views (having the only visible opponents to your views be crazy psychopathic dumb people who refuse to reason correctly is about the most comforting thing there can be)
I was talking to a friend who turned 30 about why some people younger than us (I'm 27) have acquired way more insane and paranoid views about every single thing liberal mainstream society says is true. We concluded that while we both grew up in deep blue suburban schools, we essentially got the last chopper out of 'nam before this stuff took off and blew up everyone's social trust. I graduated from high school in 2016 in the San Francisco Bay Area. I don't remember anything this bad from it. College on the other hand, had some problems start to arise.
That's the really annoying thing about the term "woke."
You have to clarify: Do you mean like "slavery was bad, and immigration is generally cool"... or "white people should be launched into space (which does not exist)"?
Well obviously, the Jews who were killed in the Holocaust were the ones with all the correct opinions on race, gender, and sexuality. It was the ones who survived and went to colonize Palestine (or Turtle Island) who had the problematic views.
I remember feeling the exact same sadness, because high school debate was such a perfect activity for competitive verbal nerds like myself, but by the end of my tenure (2014) circuit policy was captured by insane people from whom I was totally alienated. It’s also sad that fishback seems to be a grifting politician, because he is completely right about policy debate and I’d love to see it somehow fixed.
The problem is the judges. The judges should be regular people, not deeply indoctrinated college leftists.
Dang. I did high school policy debate in 2004-2008. That honestly was a golden age compared to what it seems to be now.
Defending infinity-accepting fanaticism is the pinnacle of capitalist oppression. You believe that what is moral shouldn't depend on random occurences of Mars -- have you considered that what is moral _must_ depend on random occurences of Marx, as he and he alone has truly shown us the way out of our post-modern, post-capitalist hellscape that you would bring about (by defending infinity-accepting fanaticism). Not to mention that you _changed my mind_. I abhor such offensive behavior and no debate-space should contain those able to change my mind in particular.
I would have thought debaters would be, on average, high decouplers, though I'm less surprised by the students in this case than the judges.
The thing is that how effective an argument is is really not so well correlated with its truth. (See history, world) It seems like they’re playing a glass bead game which has gotten totally separated from its original intent.
You should go on Dad Saves America and talk to John Papola about all this stuff, he's just completed a series on the shameful state of debate. His audience would greatly appreciate your insights.
When I was a very left wing person I thought the people you described did not exist and instead where strawman fantasies of right wing commentators. But as I met more and more far left people I began to realise just how insane some of them were. The worst part is these insane fringes have infected the main stream! When I now discuss politics with friends/family members I first have to convince them that truth exists and is important and then try to explain to them that you cant just ignore a news article/statistic because it is to left/right wing! Its so infuriating how okay people are with being detached from reality. Thank you for actually trying your best to pursue truth even if it means changing your worldview.
MY GOODNESS. This was a crazy read. As a competitive debater myself, mainly world schools, Asian parliamentary and British Parliamentary formats, I am glad I’ve never seen any of this, though I must admit there seems to be a degree of left wing bias in that most motions seem to assume some kind of progressive context regarding the issues involved, but I digress. How are these people debaters? I have no idea.
Insane and hilarious story bro... reminds me of some of my moments at Berkeley Law as well. The left loses so much credibility when it does crazy shit like this lmao
Beautiful reflection of an insane culture
What a wild ride. Back when I was in high school debate (circa: Resolved: The asteroid threat to the dinosaurs is overstated), debaters were my people, too. I can only imagine what an upsetting period this must have been in your life. I am so sorry to hear about this, and so impressed that you can write about it it such equanimity now.
Best wishes. Keep up the good work you do (which is a lot.)
In 2026, “shut up tranny, let the transphobes speak,” reads like the median Matt Walsh tweet.