Wait, now you have completely lost me - I was on board with the "save the shrimp" movement you initiated, but not with the claims made in this post. I think the evidence is pretty strong that insects don't feel pain - that they "likely can feel pain" is an absolute minority position among all relevant experts. The Amos article is very unconvincing given the wealth of evidence that insects aren't conscious.
https://survey2020.philpeople.org/survey/results/all?aos=38 among philosophers of biology only 21% (!!) think flies are conscious, which are among the more neurologically and behaviourally complex insects - given how divided the field is, this is incredibly strong consensus. Among philosophers of mind we have 43% who think flies are conscious, so 1) still less than half and 2) I don't take philosophers of mind to be relevant experts because they haven't got the slighest clue about flies.
I agree philosophers (even moral philosophers) aren't the most relevant set of experts on this topic. They're often unthinkingly anthropocentric - in theory but even more so in practice. Here's a great (and humble) open access read on the latest scientific (and philosophical) thinking from Jonathan Birch "The Edge of Sentience": https://www.edgeofsentience.com/
Given the scale of the potential harms / rights violations being done here prudence seems the best way forward. Otherwise we're building the next human moral abomination before we've even ended the others. Farming insects could have millions of times more victims than the trillions of existing sentients we already exploit and slaughter.
Ok, just read through the article and the literature review it cites.
The most plausible form of argument I can see is:
1. The mainstream view has been that insects do not meet some necessary conditions for pain.
2. But some insects do meet those conditions, and others we don't know about might as well.
3. So, we should adjust our credence for insects feeling pain upwards.
I buy that. However, I don't think that any of the criteria that they present helps affirmatively disentangle the nociception-pain issue. As such, I feel drawn to a Searle-esque view where humans are our certain model of sentience and insects probably deviate too much from them to plausibly be sentient. So I still have a pretty low prior on them feeling pain.
I was more concerned about the proposal in that consultation to feed chickens to pigs and feed pigs to chickens. If we want to stop the next Covid or Mad Cow Disease our food chains shouldn’t look like a mobius strip. Insects are at the top of that very tall and slippery slope.
Hi I know this seems random but what are your thoughts on this website and interpretation of quantum physics and the many worlds interpretation? https://quatism.com/theory.htm
I want to win the mega millions or Powerball jackpot with it and then donate a lot to charity but I'm worried it might entail solipsism or might not work at all.
The part where like winning the lottery in another universe can make you wealthier in this one?
Because to me the part where you can win the lottery in another universe doesn't necessarily seem nuts.
PHD well known physicists like sean carroll would probably agree with that part since it's the same idea as the universe splitter app for the phone https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1_ZsDBMPQMI just instead of splitting it into two universes one where you have broccoli for dinner the other where you have potatoes you're splitting it into like 300 million universes one for each lottery ticket combination.
Insect farming is good. In Heaven, the connection we get from the insects forgiving us for torturing them a quadrillion times over will be infinite! It will also boost the connection we get with the failed Archons, and probably lead to many lexically(?) superior goods that we have no idea exist at all.
Thanks for the bulletin. Based on what you and Wollen have to say about it, insect farming doesn’t sound like a great alternative.
Relatedly, I’m trying to get a better feel for how you’re unitizing the suffering capacity of living things.
Since shrimp seem to be a key working unit for you, in terms of suffering, how many shrimp starvations would you say are roughly equivalent in your mind to a human starvation? Obviously none of us at this point can know for certain, but what’s your ballpark here? Is the total suffering 1-to-1, 10-1, 1,000-1? I honestly have no idea what you think on this, but suspect you assign more weight to the shrimp than I currently would.
Like if you trolley problem a tank of shrimp on one track and some person on the other, how many shrimp need to be in the tank before you direct the trolley to the person?
Wait, now you have completely lost me - I was on board with the "save the shrimp" movement you initiated, but not with the claims made in this post. I think the evidence is pretty strong that insects don't feel pain - that they "likely can feel pain" is an absolute minority position among all relevant experts. The Amos article is very unconvincing given the wealth of evidence that insects aren't conscious.
https://benthams.substack.com/p/betting-on-ubiquitous-pain
Don’t think there’s a consensus, would be curious about the source
https://survey2020.philpeople.org/survey/results/all?aos=38 among philosophers of biology only 21% (!!) think flies are conscious, which are among the more neurologically and behaviourally complex insects - given how divided the field is, this is incredibly strong consensus. Among philosophers of mind we have 43% who think flies are conscious, so 1) still less than half and 2) I don't take philosophers of mind to be relevant experts because they haven't got the slighest clue about flies.
Unfortunately no survey exists for biologists.
But a lot were undecided and philosophers of biology have mostly not looked much at fly brains
I agree philosophers (even moral philosophers) aren't the most relevant set of experts on this topic. They're often unthinkingly anthropocentric - in theory but even more so in practice. Here's a great (and humble) open access read on the latest scientific (and philosophical) thinking from Jonathan Birch "The Edge of Sentience": https://www.edgeofsentience.com/
Given the scale of the potential harms / rights violations being done here prudence seems the best way forward. Otherwise we're building the next human moral abomination before we've even ended the others. Farming insects could have millions of times more victims than the trillions of existing sentients we already exploit and slaughter.
What do you take the wealth of evidence that insects aren't conscious to be?
It seems to me that the term 'pain' has two meanings here.
A. An aversive functional response to particular stimuli.
B. A qualitative experience of badness.
Insects, like NPCs in video games, definitely have A. Is there evidence to suggest they have B?
Yes, see the article I linked.
Ok, just read through the article and the literature review it cites.
The most plausible form of argument I can see is:
1. The mainstream view has been that insects do not meet some necessary conditions for pain.
2. But some insects do meet those conditions, and others we don't know about might as well.
3. So, we should adjust our credence for insects feeling pain upwards.
I buy that. However, I don't think that any of the criteria that they present helps affirmatively disentangle the nociception-pain issue. As such, I feel drawn to a Searle-esque view where humans are our certain model of sentience and insects probably deviate too much from them to plausibly be sentient. So I still have a pretty low prior on them feeling pain.
I mean, even at ~10% odds, because there are so many insects, worth signing the petition. In more detail, see here https://benthams.substack.com/p/betting-on-ubiquitous-pain
I was more concerned about the proposal in that consultation to feed chickens to pigs and feed pigs to chickens. If we want to stop the next Covid or Mad Cow Disease our food chains shouldn’t look like a mobius strip. Insects are at the top of that very tall and slippery slope.
Hi I know this seems random but what are your thoughts on this website and interpretation of quantum physics and the many worlds interpretation? https://quatism.com/theory.htm
https://quatism.com/lottery.htm
https://archive.4plebs.org/x/search/text/quatism.com%2Flottery.htm/
I want to win the mega millions or Powerball jackpot with it and then donate a lot to charity but I'm worried it might entail solipsism or might not work at all.
Seems nuts.
The part where like winning the lottery in another universe can make you wealthier in this one?
Because to me the part where you can win the lottery in another universe doesn't necessarily seem nuts.
PHD well known physicists like sean carroll would probably agree with that part since it's the same idea as the universe splitter app for the phone https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1_ZsDBMPQMI just instead of splitting it into two universes one where you have broccoli for dinner the other where you have potatoes you're splitting it into like 300 million universes one for each lottery ticket combination.
Insect farming is good. In Heaven, the connection we get from the insects forgiving us for torturing them a quadrillion times over will be infinite! It will also boost the connection we get with the failed Archons, and probably lead to many lexically(?) superior goods that we have no idea exist at all.
Thanks for the bulletin. Based on what you and Wollen have to say about it, insect farming doesn’t sound like a great alternative.
Relatedly, I’m trying to get a better feel for how you’re unitizing the suffering capacity of living things.
Since shrimp seem to be a key working unit for you, in terms of suffering, how many shrimp starvations would you say are roughly equivalent in your mind to a human starvation? Obviously none of us at this point can know for certain, but what’s your ballpark here? Is the total suffering 1-to-1, 10-1, 1,000-1? I honestly have no idea what you think on this, but suspect you assign more weight to the shrimp than I currently would.
Like if you trolley problem a tank of shrimp on one track and some person on the other, how many shrimp need to be in the tank before you direct the trolley to the person?