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Vikram V.'s avatar

> To southern slave-owners, the permissibility of slavery was intuitive.

This is nonsense. Huge numbers of slave owners believed that it was bad, or a necessary evil, and everyone knew that it was subject to open and vigorous debate.

> Consider first: you shouldn’t directly trust your intuition that insect suffering doesn’t matter. You’re not an insect, you have no natural empathy towards insects, there’s social incentive not to care about insect welfare, and caring about them is inconvenient.

You suffer from similar cognitive biases. You have an unlimited willingness to feel empathy for anything you consider to be plausibly conscious because you are conscious. You have enormous social incentive to care about insects, since that allow you to show that you are a super principled EA and write blog posts. You are actually helped by alleviating insect suffering, since the personal satisfaction and social benefits from your donations to insect charities almost certainly outweigh the monetary value of those donations.

> Second: insects plausibly can suffer a great deal. The most detailed report ever compiled on the subject estimated that they suffer at least 1% as intensely as we do, and on average around 10%. That could, of course, be an underestimate, but it could also be a dramatic overestimate.

There is no evidence that critical flicker frequency correlates to “subjective” experience as opposed to mechanical reactions depending on how fast an organism can process data. It proves nothing about the existence of speed of subjective experience. All of the evidence you cite in your blog posts are just reactions to things that can obviously occur without conscious experience. The only way to prove these things would be (maybe) to talk to the animals and see if they can speak to their experiences or find a decisive connection between human brain architectue and other animal as that clearly does not exist for insects.

> Ask yourself: how much would you pay to avoid having to experience a painful death from the perspective of an insect.

$0

> These creatures potentially suffer quite intensely and often writhe around in agony for hours before eventually succumbing to death.

No proof of conscious experience or that they perceive this writing as negatively painful.

> If insects screamed in volume proportional to their suffering, nothing could be heard over the cries of insects.

This is as factual as a sermon warning of the screams in hell of the damned.

> Babies and the severely mentally disabled cannot reason about morality, do calculus, or think of their lives as a whole. Nonetheless, severe, prolonged agony experienced by babies and the severely mentally disabled is obviously quite bad.

You must think that there is some point at which babies become conscious. Roughly when is it? Wherever it is, that shows that capacity matters. The fact that the baby cannot do suffering is largely irrelevant because it shows that at some point in development it has the neural architecture which enables those mega-level conceptions of badness.

Of a severely mentally disabled person was literally brain dead, which is what you’re describing, then they are not really alive and have no direct moral value.

> When I think about unpleasant experiences I’ve had, their badness seems to be about how they feel.

No. It’s feeling + a judgment that you’ve made that the feeling is bad. You are making that judgment, regardless of whatever you say you are.

> If I temporarily lost the ability to think rationally or conceptualize of my life as a whole, it would still be bad for me to be tortured.

If you were unable to comprehend the pain as a bad thing, then it would not be bad for you. This would require a really really large loss of brain function (particularly for you). The words “think rationally” and “conceptualize my life as a whole” don’t do it justice…

> Their species never became rational. They remained permanently like human babies.

This planet would obviously be the product of divine intervention designed to test us.

> When you next hold a baby, try seriously entertaining the thought that the only reason that their suffering is bad isn’t because of their present state, but because they share a species with intelligent creatures. The thought is completely insane.

You would torture 600 babies to death to avert 0.000001% of insect suffering. Do you seriously expect empathy trolling about babies to work?

> Why the heck does species matter? Why not, say, kingdom or clade?

I don’t hold this view, but species matters because you can interbreed. If your view of ethics is super family focused, then specifies clearly matters for a non-arbitrary reason.

> as international bodies consistently conclude

Why is Jonathan Birch now an “international body”?

> They respond in many ways as if they suffer: responding to anesthetic, nursing their wounds, making tradeoffs between pain and reward, cognitively modeling both risks and reward in decision-making, responding in novel ways to novel experiences, self-medicating, and much more.

I don’t know why any of these support an inference that they consciously suffer. The obvious alternate explanation is that they have evolved instincts and predictive capabilities to avoid death. That does not require consciousness, and it certainly does not require a subjective feeling of badness.

> The most detailed report on the subject guessed they suffer on average about 5-15% as intensely as we do.

Same report as above. Still takes into account a bunch of random criteria without explaining why they support consciousness. Why does “taste aversion” mean that something is conscious? It would be trivial to design a non-conscious taste averter.

> We have no very compelling evidence about it

We have the most compelling evidence imaginable: they have a minuscule, mechanic nervous system and have no experiences known that are unique to conscious beings.

> To correct against this, let’s imagine that insects looked like people but still had the mental capacities of insects.

If they looked like people but had the mental capacities of insects then I would be certain that they are not conscious because they would be using the same brain but still would have no mental faculties. They would prove some strong form of non-physicalism correct.

Ignoring the brains part, if they had the same mental capabilities as insects these humans would Immediately collapse on the floor and starve to death. Would they be distinguishable from a brain dead person? Maybe not…

> where every day you witnessed many of them starve in the streets, be crushed or devoured by larger creatures, cry and whimper in pain, and have their blood run out as their corpse is scraped against the pavement, would it be reasonable to think only your interests mattered?

There would be neither streets nor pavement, since the humanoids will all immediately collapse and starve to death after being created. By hypothesizing streets and pavements, you are smuggling in a wildly inflated sense of intelligence.

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Anatol Wegner's avatar

Wow some of the best weird highly articulate nonsense I have come across lately. How does someone take the time to write a long format article without ever thinking ‘Maybe what I feel is categorically different from an insect?’. I guess having identified ‘the biggest issue in the world’ helps.

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