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River's avatar
7dEdited

This is another one of those cases where whatever we can learn, we can learn from physics, the philosophers have nothing to contribute, and often end up saying stupid and anti-scientific things because of their ignorance of actual science.

Lets look at your takes on physics.

> Newton’s theory ... posits non-relative motion, when Einstein later proved motion is relative.

False. Newton himself believed in non-relative motion, as we can see if we actually go back and read the principia. But it wasn't part of his theories in any meaningful sense. Nothing else he said hung on it. It was the physics equivalent of what lawyers call dicta. And when modern physicists speak of Newtonian mechanics, they are not referring to a way of thinking that involves absolute (non-relative) motion, they are referring to a way of thinking that involves relative motion, specifically gallilean relativity. You can complete a course in classical mechanics, a whole physics major, and never learn that Newton believed in absolute motion. It is just as true and just as irrelevent as the fact that Newton believed in alchemy. It was not part of his science. I only learned this fact because I was assigned the relevant passage from the principia in a modern philosophy class, a class where the professor had no idea that physicists had long since discarded the idea. That to my mind is a huge mark against philosophy.

> It posits instantaneous action at a distance, which Einstein later disproved. It posits gravity as a force, rather than the bending of spacetime.

These are true, but you later suggest that statements like these are somehow claims about what exists, and they just aren't. Newton doesn't make particular claims about what exists, in his time that was what chemistry was for. These statements, and all of Newtonian physics, are statements about what sorts of properties the things that exist have (like mass), and how the things that exist interact.

> The picture it tells of reality isn’t approximating the truth, but is flatly incorrect, and much of what it says exists, does not.

Again, this is just False. Newtonian physics really does approximate the truth extremely well for things that move very slowly compared to the speed of light, and have very little mass compared to a star or black hole.

When I look at your list of other scientific theories that supposedly turned out to be completely false, some of them I believe are false, some I have no idea what they are, but some I'm pretty sure are true. Lets take for example the theory of "Variation of electron mass with velocity". This is not my preferred way of describing what is happening, but it is a way some physicists describe what is happening, and it isn't wrong. In high school physics, you were probably told that momentum is mass times velocity. This is true in Newtonian physics. In special relativity, momentum is m*v*gamma, where gamma = 1 / (1 - v^2 / c^2)^0.5, where c is the speed of light in a vacuum. Firstly, note that when v is small, gamma is very close to 1, and so the special relativity notion of momentum is very close to the Newtonian notion of momentum. So yes, Newtonian physics is approximately true. But to come back to the variation of mass, what some physicists do when talking about relativistic motion is to redefine the word mass to mean m*gamma. If you use the word mass that way, then momentum still equals mass times velocity. And if you use the word mass that way, then mass also becomes a function of velocity, it really does increase when velocity increases. Again, this is not my preferred way to think about these equations, but it is not an incorrect way to think about these equations.

The ultimate point here is that is these are the sorts of questions you are interested in, you should be studying physics, not philosophy.

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Jack Thompson's avatar

Aside: the inclusion of phlogiston on a list of "wonderfully predictively successful" theories made me initially skeptical of Vickers' list. I have not read extensively on this subject, but it seemed to me that phlogiston was a classic example of a non-explanation which just gives a name to a phenomenon as a cause. "Why did it burn? Because it was full of stuff that makes it burn." This was Yudkowsky's argument as a necessary criterion for geniune science (https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/RgkqLqkg8vLhsYpfh/fake-causality).

I asked GPT-5 to evaluate the rest of Vickers' list to check for instances of fake causality, including reassessing whether phlogiston is a geniune example. But the list is pretty legit—only one is fake causality (Velikovsky and Venus), and even phlogiston made some predictions, even if riddled with epicycles.

Just in case anyone had the "those aren't real science" reflex that I did.

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