Discussion about this post

User's avatar
James Reilly's avatar

On the nine points posited by Christians (apologies for the lengthy comment):

- If one thinks that there are good independent reasons to be a theist, then (1) and (2) will not add anything to the intellectual price tag of the Christian theory.

- I'm not sure why (3) is surprising. If one thinks that God became incarnate partially to suffer alongside us, then a poor, subjugated region of an oppressive empire might be precisely the sort of place we'd expect him to appear. Also, the washing that Jesus condemns is a form of ritual purification, which was performed before the eating of bread. Jesus' point is that one should not prioritize external ritual observance over internal sanctity: as he says, "you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness" (Luke 11:39). This is part of a general pattern in the gospels, where Jesus stresses the subordinate role of formal rituals as compared with genuine righteousness (see e.g. his healing of a blind man on the Sabbath). He isn't just generically saying it's pretentious to wash your hands (though perhaps the mere possibility of misinterpretation on these matters is some evidence against Christianity).

- Point (4) seems to assume that self-revelation is a primary motive for the Incarnation. But while this is certainly *one* of the goods that the Incarnation achieves, it doesn't seem to be the *primary* good: Christ's mission was to bring about reconciliation between God and humanity, and (on all of the plausible theories of the Atonement) one does not have to believe in Jesus (or even have heard of him) in order to benefit from this. Also, perhaps one could employ here one's preferred response to divine hiddenness: for instance, maybe Jesus' refrains from appearing to everyone in order to give us the opportunity to help one another seek him out, to give evangelists the opportunity to help others find Christ, etc.

- Point (5) seems mistaken. You write that Jesus appeared "only... to his believers, such that they only began writing of this nearly a lifetime after it allegedly occurred." But this just seems wrong: our first source concerning Jesus is St. Paul, who wrote in the 50s (not "nearly a lifetime" after Jesus), and who was not a believer when his appearance occurred. St. James was also not a believer when Jesus appeared to him, assuming we think Paul is correct in claiming that this happened (though the evidence of his case is less weighty, since he was presumably grieving for his dead brother, and could therefore have had a grief vision). And of course, many people today claim to see Jesus, including a surprising number of non-Christians (see e.g. Wiebe's "Visions of Jesus" book).

- On (6), it's not entirely true that the objectionable OT stories were "not known to be metaphorical until the modern age." Many ancient Jewish and Christian thinkers (e.g. Philo, Origen, Gregory, etc.) allegorized large parts of scripture, and they were perfectly aware of the morally objectionable nature of literal readings (see Gregory's condemnation of slavery, or his reading of the killing of the Egyptian firstborns). Of course, one could still say that the relative predominance of literalistic readings is evidence against Christianity, and that's probably true.

- On (8), *most* of Jesus' apocalyptic teachings don't seem to pose any difficulty for the idea that he was God Incarnate (though the famous "some standing here shall not taste death" is certainly a difficulty).

- One doesn't *have* to accept (9) in order to think that Jesus rose from the dead (though of course I think one *should* accept it). It's also worth noting that if a low credence in the Trinity gives one reason to doubt Jesus, then if one thinks that the Trinity is independently plausible (e.g. if one happens to like Swinburne's or Sijuwade's arguments for it), then this would constitute evidence *for* Jesus being God Incarnate.

Expand full comment
Ben Passant's avatar

"There are decent odds that at least one religion is correct."

I would love to hear you elaborate on that, because I don't think this is true at all even if I were to accept your overwhelmingly strong case for theism fully.

Once you start considering religion in terms of its sociological functions, the importance of their veracity regarding a theistic foundation vanishes quickly, especially during those long stretches of human history when religion formed both the most important functional and moral institution at the same time.

Expand full comment
9 more comments...

No posts